Jim Huskey Lecture

JIM HUSKEY: My international partner and wife. Have you started studying Tiananmen yet?

PAUL CHA: No we haven't but they've seen a documentary and they're aware of it.

JIM HUSKEY: I want to talk a lot more than just about Tiananmen but I'll focus on that as much as you want. The problem is when you get some Foreign Service officers in a room, you start telling stories, because we have so many adventures in our lives and we're rabid tourists. We love to tell stories. Let me just back up for a minute. In September 1965, Howard College became Samford University and then it began the march from being a small state college to a regional university and now a national university. That same September I started as a freshman. The trees out here were this high. The campus was denuded of 1:00anything. Just a few buildings. It was an empty place. That same month a young Howard College graduate returned after doing his doctorate for four or five years to teach here. His name was Wayne Flynt. You probably have not heard of him, because he left a number of years ago. He is one of the great teachers of the South. He is a wonderful historian and teacher, but he taught a course called "Far East." It was the first time Samford had a course on anything outside of Western civilization. Far East. And I began studying about Japan, China, Korea. Vietnam I knew about, because of what was going on there, the Vietnam War, and there was a growing anti-war movement so Vietnam I knew about 2:00but otherwise it was new to me and it planted a seed inside of me that germinated and continued to grow my whole life. I went up to Wisconsin, the University of Wisconsin, to get my master's degree in history. Be careful about these professors here, because they can change your life. I was going to med school and I ended up doing my doctorate in history and being a diplomat. I went to Wisconsin and did my master's and then I did my doctoral prelims, preliminary examinations. Then I went off to Europe for the summer to get rested before starting the grind, the doctoral grind, and I kept going. I never went back to Wisconsin. I kept going east, south over the Strait of Gibraltar into Morocco, 3:00where I had my first experience with a non-Western world. And it was mesmerizing. Whole different patterns of thinking, different value systems, and I tried to factor this into my Southern Baptist upbringing in Alabama and it was to me, mesmerizing. Kept going east. Algeria, Libya. Hitch-hiking on oil tankers across the Northern Sahara desert. Tripoli, Libya, caught a freighter over to Turkey. Turkey is the bridge between East and West, between Asia and Europe, and that's where you see the sequential change between civilizations. Kept going east through Iran, the great 3,000 year old Iranian-Persian civilization, to Afghanistan, which then was peaceful, an amazing place. These tall, six foot 4:00plus Afghanis, long calloused hands, they would welcome you to their culture, Muslim culture, but you always knew if you crossed them, they have a knife under their hand and they use it. A different culture, a different way of organizing society. On to India for a year, getting to know that ancient and complex civilization. Later, across to Southeast Asia, all ten of those countries. Ten fascinating countries. Are you studying Southeast Asia at all?


JIM HUSKEY: Fascinating countries, all ten of them. Burma, which is changing very quickly now. Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Philippines, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam. A fascinating set of civilizations. I caught a freighter up to Hong Kong; then I finally met China, which I had always been reading about, 5:00studying about, and I was just pulled right in. The culture, the language. Used my last $40, $35 to take a freighter across to Taiwan, an island off the coast of China, and stayed there three years, learning Chinese, working. Therefore I ended up a Sinologist, a China specialist. Had I stopped in India, I would have been an Indologist. I have often thought if I stopped in Bali I would be a Baliologist. This is what happens. Far East, I ended up, 5 years later, living in Asia, becoming an Asianist, an Asian specialist, a Sinologist, a China specialist. I came back and did my doctorate at UNC Chapel Hill in U.S. 6:00Diplomatic History and I believe you have a diplomatic course in the history department.

JIM BROWN: We used to long ago.

JIM HUSKEY: Bring it back.

JIM BROWN: Political science is claiming all that too.

JIM HUSKEY: You need a historical perspective on diplomacy. Political science gives you one slice of it, history gives you a different slice of it. So I got my doctorate in U.S. diplomatic history with a specialty in East Asia, but especially China. Then I went off and joined the Foreign Service. My wife and I went to Beijing. Let me give you a quick synopsis of what we did before we turn to directly discussing Asia. Our Foreign Service life is very Asia-centric. In 7:001988 when I joined the Foreign Service we were first sent to Beijing. We worked in the U.S. embassy in Beijing. I already spoke Chinese. Shortly after we arrived a movement, a student movement, broke out and laborers joined in demanding an end to corruption and demanding more say, even the word democracy, they began to say democracy, which was unheard of in China. This movement grew day by day. Joanne and I would go out each night, watch students and workers demonstrate, first a few hundred, the next night, a thousand, next night, several thousand, then ten thousand. Night by night, sequentially, it just exponentially burgeoned. After a few weeks you have hundreds of thousands of 8:00students and workers demonstrating every night. Democracy, democracy, stop corruption. So, this is from April until June 3. June 3. That night, I was in the square, in Tiananmen Square, watching the students give speeches saying "We have won this movement. China is now a democracy. The government is finished." Then we began hearing gunshots coming in from the west and all these hundreds of thousands of people began running toward what turned out to be tanks, seventy or eighty tanks coming in and PLA, People's Liberation Army soldiers behind them with machine guns and basically for the rest of the night, I happened to be the 9:00only U.S. official in the square to witness this, so this became our official position on what happened. I spent the night watching five waves of massacre of students and workers and just regular citizens of Beijing. It was a terrible thing, but, you know, all night long I kept thinking, remembering “Far East”, because in that class under Professor Wayne Flynt, we studied about the May 4 Movement, a movement in 1919, just after World War I, when Chinese students stood up in cities all across China and demanded modernization and democracy. So here seventy years later I was here in Tiananmen Square watching a 10:00students' movement and I thought, "This is deja vu. I have been here before." This time though it ended differently, in massacre. As I talk about these four of our posts, what I am doing is representing what we in the Foreign Service do, what our foreign policy is. In this case, I was a human rights officer. Every embassy has a human rights officer. I was appointed human rights officer and as a result of that I wrote a human rights report on the Tiananmen Massacre which detailed what I witnessed. The Chinese were saying "Nobody was killed", but my estimate was about 1,200 were killed. I think the number I had was 1,235 from what I witnessed, from what we talked with doctors in hospitals, that was our figure. But the Chinese government was correct and this is interesting to know 11:00if you ever get into a discussion of this, either historically or in conversation. The Chinese government is right. Nobody was killed in Tiananmen Square, this massive square in the center of Beijing. Everybody was killed in the streets going into the square and going out of it, and that is where I witnessed the massacre. As a human rights officer and as a consular officer who issues visas, the next year after the Tiananmen Massacre, I issued visa after visa to student leaders who were hiding, who had no way to get out of China, and if they were caught they would be in jail. Many were in jail, and this was my way. It may not technically have been legal, but there was no way for them to get out of China, because, if you know how the UN operates, to become a 12:00political refugee in any country in the world, you have to apply to the UNHCR, the UN High Commission on Refugees. If they approve, after many months of discussion, your application to be a political asylee, then you can apply to the U.S. or France or Britain to be accepted as a political refugee. Anybody who had done that in China would have been in jail same day. So as a human rights officer, one of the things I did was help students get out of China to find political asylum. Next, you move our next overseas post was in Kenya. No it was India, sorry. India. There the impetus was, human rights in China, in India, 13:00commerce and trade, because India had just begun to liberalize. For years India was under Nehruian socialism. Top heavy, heavy industrial, orders from the top, very hostile to free enterprise and business, so India was a very top heavy socialist country, Jawaharlal Nehru, the first prime minister of India from 1949 until 1980 or so. India was close friends with the Soviet Union, which was also a top-down, heavily centralized planning economy and they were both dead in the water. India was dead in the water for decades until the early 1990s when we arrived. For a number of reasons I can talk about later on, India changed and 14:00began to open its economy to encourage private business. That was so successful, that they opened up more and more, and India now is one of the great dynamos of the world. When we got there it was just beginning to open up. There was zero American business there. Outside of our consulate there were no Americans. So how do you, as a Foreign Service officer, promote business, commerce, trade, economic relations? Just as an example, DuPont wanted to come to Madras to build a billion dollar synthetic rubber plant, but the leftists in India and the environmentalists in India opposed it saying this would pollute the air, the water. Well, I had been working already with environmentalists in Chennai. This is in, we were living in Chennai, which is a city in South India, used to be 15:00called Madras. So I began to put the environmentalists together with the DuPont engineers. DuPont was able to show them, in a series of meetings, that its factory would be the cleanest factory in India. The water that came out of that plant would be much cleaner than what went in. The air from the smokestacks would be scrubbed, cleaner than what went in. This was persuasive, they backed off, DuPont built its billion dollar factory, and that was the beginning of the American presence really in Chennai and South India. So what we do in the Foreign Service, number two, is we promote economic relations, trade, and commerce. Next, we moved to Kenya. Kenya was an authoritarian, not exactly a dictatorship, but authoritarian under Daniel arap Moi, so there, my top priority 16:00was, number three, democracy-building. How do you move countries from authoritarianism into democracy? What we did was, we organized a coalition of like-minded nations. I worked closely with the British, French, Aussies, Kiwis, New Zealanders, Japanese, nations that were democratic and we began full court press demanding, pushing for, free and fair elections, World Bank, working with us, petitioning aid to Kenya on free and fair elections. The up side is, three years after we left, in 1999, Kenya had its first free and fair presidential elections. Kenya is now a democracy. It has economic and tribal problems, but it is a democracy. That is what the U.S. government does. The final thing I would 17:00point out, back into Asia, is Taiwan. We went to Taiwan in 2004 where I was the political counselor in the, we do not have an embassy in Taiwan. Anybody know why? Where is our embassy in China?

STUDENT: In Beijing.

JIM HUSKEY: Beijing. Because we have a one-China policy.

STUDENT: Recognize Taiwan as a country?

JIM HUSKEY: We have never recognized Taiwan. We have de-recognized Taiwan and recognized Beijing. Under Nixon, Kissinger, Carter, we recognized Beijing and we de-recognized Taiwan, which is sad, because Taiwan is a wonderful democracy. It is a free, open country, but we do not have official relations with them. So we do not have an embassy there, we have AIT, the American Institute in Taiwan, 18:00which is a quasi-independent organization that looks just like an embassy, acts like an embassy, but has a different name. But China wants Taiwan. China wants to eat Taiwan, swallow it, make it China. But the problem is we have a treaty with Taiwan which says if Taiwan is attacked, America will come to its aid. Taiwan Relations Act. So here I am in Taiwan for four years, 2004 to 2008 and my top priority is, basically, conflict prevention. Keeping Taiwan from pushing too far towards democracy. Though I sympathize with it, all of us do, because Taiwan is a wonderful democracy, but if they ever proclaim independence or push close 19:00to it, China is going to mobilize, have troops into there, and we are going to be pulled into a third war. Iraq, Afghanistan going on. So I spent four years meeting with foreign ministry, foreign minister, with the president, just pushing, constantly pushing caution. Do not push too hard toward independence. You have got to keep grey, because if you push toward independence a certain point, China is going to invade. And, after four years, Taiwan had pretty much settled into a fairly awkward grey area of working with China economically, but keeping separate from it but not proclaiming independence. As a result, today that is one of the flashpoints in the world that has been, basically, resolved or, at least, the threat has been toned down. Look at the flashpoints. You have 20:00the Palestinian-Israeli flashpoint. North Korea-South Korea flashpoint. The Pakistan-India flashpoint. The fourth big potential war flashpoint was the strait between Taiwan and China and basically that is the one that I feel best about because that is, I think that has been basically resolved. It is moved into a fairly good working relationship with China. My fourth point here is conflict prevention. So in my career the four big areas of U.S. foreign policy that I focused on are human rights, democracy-building, commerce and trade, and 21:00conflict prevention. Now, before we talk about Asia per se and what you are studying, I want to ask, in the Foreign Service, I have been talking about myself so far, but I was part of a team, all these three decades, living and serving abroad, representing and serving the United States officially, all that time I was accompanied by Joanne, who is an internationalist in her own right. After she finished at Harvard she headed an international program at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, then I shanghaied her to Beijing. Do you know what Shanghai is? Do you know what shanghai, the verb means? Back in the 1920's and 1930's, sailors would be kidnapped in the bars of 22:00San Francisco, they would be drunk and kidnapped by ship captains and forced to work their way to Asia and they would usually escape in Shanghai. So to be shanghaied is to be kidnapped. And I shanghaied Joanne to Beijing. What happened is this. In our career we operated on three tracks, and this affects you if you have any international proclivities or interests because you can be an official person, a diplomat, or a trade representative of the U.S. government or a military officer, official, but the whole other side of our overseas presence, easily nine-tenths of our presence, is the unofficial side. People who are 23:00working in business, people who are working in NGO, missionaries, individuals. Joanne wrote a book last year called The Unofficial Diplomat that you can read about on Amazon.com, the review is there. The Unofficial Diplomat talks about her life as a regular American overseas and the responsibilities that went with it.

JOANNE HUSKEY: What is the name of this course again?

STUNDENT: Riots, Revolutions, and Rebellions.

JOANNE HUSKEY: In our life--I married someone in the Foreign Service--I ended up in riots, revolutions, and rebellions in almost every country we lived in. One of the things he did not say, and that is, you end up being part of history, actually being part of history. For example, in Beijing, I was not at the 24:00embassy. I worked with Deng Xiaoping's son, Hu Fang, who is disabled. He was in a wheelchair and I ended up working with people in Beijing who were disabled, all over the city. When Tiananmen Square happened we were right in the middle. We met a lot of kids, we met a lot of students. We were very much a part of it. When the actual massacre that Jim referred to happened there were no relationships anymore between the United States and China. None. Completely cut off relations because they felt that the American people were promoting the ideas of democracy in China through various methods. In those days you did not even have Internet. E-mails were not existent but there were ways people were getting information. And, ironically, I was already working with Chinese people, 25:00so, even after the two governments stopped talking, I was actually working in all of these institutions for disabled people and I was meeting the son of the premier. And the ambassador, who was Jim Lilly at the time. You may have heard of a book "China Hand?" It is a great book if you have not. Anyway, he said to me "Look you are on the ground meeting real people every day and we cannot talk diplomatically. We cannot talk to each other. Let me know anything, like, ‘How are the Chinese people really feeling?’ Etc., etc.” So I was able to work on the ground in a way that Jim, as the official diplomat, really could not, because he had much more formal relationships. And in other parts of our lives, 26:00for example, when we were in Kenya, Jim mentioned this, but we were in the U.S. embassy when Al-Qaeda blew it up. I do not know if any of you were alive in 1998, but it was kind of the time that Al-Qaeda came out of the closet, so to speak, and one day, August 7, 1998, they blew up the embassy in Tanzania, they blew up the embassy in Nairobi, and they planned to blow up a few others the same day. I was in the embassy with my family, my kids, I had children at the time, I was in the basement, Jim was on the fourth floor, and the whole building blew up and we of course survived, we are here to talk to you but a lot of people did not. Again, I was, we were part of history and I worked with Kenyan 27:00people who were injured. 258 people were killed but thousands of people were hurt. Kenyans were blinded, they were deaf, there were people who lost limbs, who were paralyzed. I was head of the American Women's Association. I worked with all these victims and raised money to rehabilitate these people, but what I really was doing, what really was happening, was creating an understanding between Kenyan people and American people, because it would have been very easy after such a huge thing to happened for Kenyans to blame Americans for being bombed, being killed, being hurt, so I guess the bottom line of my little piece here is that when you are living a global existence, by being an American 28:00overseas, moving through societies, you are actually promoting American values, because you already believe in them. You already believe in human rights, you believe in equality between men and women, you believe in acceptance of people who are disabled, you believe in all kinds of things that you had grown up with just as part of your lifestyle, but by being an American living in a society, you actually can change things by promoting those values. And I, as the unofficial part of this partnership, was being able to make a lot of contributions in the countries that we lived and also be a major part of history.

JIM HUSKEY: Actually what happened was, as a diplomat, you helicopter into a country and you are a somebody. You represent the United States of America. I could go to Taiwan or Kenya, I could meet with the foreign minister, any member 29:00of parliament, their congress, even the president, on many occasions. So I was the official diplomat, but I promise you, after six months, it usually took about six months before I started to be identified in most conversations as Joanne's husband. That is the impact that unofficial diplomacy has, that you as missionaries, as NGO operatives working with World Vision or thousands of other NGOs overseas, or you as a business person, you as a student, you can go overseas and study, you also represent the United States and its values and that is a pretty great thing. America is a pretty great country and you see that more than ever when you live for a long time outside of the United States. Let me 30:00speak about Asia, if I can, for a few minutes and then get to your discussion. When I took this “Far East” course here in 1967 under this professor Wayne Flynt, Asia was a basket case. It was backward, it was dirty, it was not moving. I mean, that was the phrase you always heard, “Asia, it is a basket case.” I remember reading one of the books assigned for that course, The Nature of the Non-Western World, and I have forgotten her last name, Edna, went through country by country and every one, China, Japan, Korea, all ten of these Southeastern Asia countries, excluding Australia and New Zealand of course because they were already developed, but these countries were dead in the water. There was very little entrepreneurship, no manufacturing, China was mired in basically a low level of poverty. Mao Zedong and the Communists won the civil 31:00war in 1949. They communized the whole country. 1958, a great leap forward. Mao was going to move China forward in one year. The result: starvation. Twenty million people died. China was flat on its back. Equal, egalitarian at the very lowest possible level. India was dead in the water. Under this Nehruian socialism, there was no development, no business investment there, Indian businessmen could not do anything. Dead in the water. The only glimmer was Japan. Japan lost the war, World War 2, but they became a democracy and basically capitalistic like that, under MacArthur. So what you have happening in the 1960s, when I was studying, early 1970s, Japan was moving. It had converted its war factories, war material factories and plane factories, into 32:00manufacturing cheap consumer goods. Plastic knick knacks, pocket knives. It was a joke. If you said "Made in Japan" that was a joke because only little trinkets were made there, but they were year by year sequentially raising their efficiency, their production quality, and the level of technology so that by the early 1970s they were manufacturing Toyotas, Hondas, still junk compared to Detroit. Detroit was the watchword for quality in the whole world. Quality automobile manufacturing, way out in front. Even Mercedes did not have much of a name then, but Japan was sequentially increasing its quality and technology. By the Mid-Seventies, late Seventies, Honda and Toyota had begun to invade America. 33:00Finally Detroit's quality met its match and it was surpassed. So Japan was moving. In fact, by the mid-Seventies, 1977, when Jimmy Carter was president, there came a growing fear into the early 1980s, Japan was the new super state. There were books called Japan: The New Super Stage. Japan was buying out real estate all over New York City, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. There was a real fear that we were going to be passed. For a number of reasons, Japan's real estate bubble hit the marathon wall and it collapsed and it still has never recovered since the mid-80s. This is important because we have the same fear right now with China, so there are experiences where the spheres have not fanned 34:00out. But what happens then with China and India's interests? Deng Xiaoping, pragmatic, short guy, takes over in the power struggle after Mao Zedong dies in 1976 and then he does something very uncommunistic. He allows farmers to have private plots of land. These huge communes. Husbands live in one barrack, wives live in another, children in another, it is a regimen of work and you work for the common good. A wonderful ideal, an ideal of a new socialist man but human nature is human nature and maybe that's not the best way to motivate people, because again, China was, production-wise, dead in the water, not progressing, but this new idea of private plots, what happens? Within one year, every farmer 35:00who was allowed had these beautiful private plots, raising pigs, chickens, raising every kind of vegetable, and all of a sudden within one year, China's agricultural production almost doubled. "Aha, we are onto something." Then you have a major reform movement going on and China is on the rise, but that is interrupted by Tiananmen. The communist government pulls back in, circles the wagons, like we did with the American Indians in the Wild West, hunkers down, stops the reforms, after the Tiananmen massacre. India is beginning to move because there were two great events in recent history, 11/9 and 9/11. 9/11 you 36:00know, in 2001, the World Trade Center was attacked by Al-Qaeda. 11/9, November 9, 1989, the Berlin Wall falls. All of a sudden, the whole Soviet model of development is discredited. The Soviet Union collapses inward, not from the outside. This reverberated across the world, especially in the Third World, the developing world, and it hit India hard. All of a sudden its good friend, the Soviet Union, was dead. India was not moving, so then this new prime minister, Narasimha Rao, he begins to allow to change regulations, private business in India, and India begins to take off, and it has been a straight line from then until now with India having some of the most advanced technology in the world. Still many poor people but India is on the move like China is today. Deng 37:00Xiaoping steps back in two years after the Tiananmen massacre and restarts reforms and China has been going like this, a ten percent growth a year for the past fifteen years. India's six, seven, eight percent growth, so we have two countries, moving fast. One other part of the world is Southeast Asia, ASEAN. Do you know what ASEAN is?

STUDENT: Association for Southeastern Asian Nations.

JIM HUSKEY: Exactly. That is their NATO or their Organization for African Unity. Each region has its own regional organization. When I came back from Kenya in 1999, I was put in charge of the ASEAN program in the State Department, I was the liaison to ASEAN. And it 38:00was nothing. It was kind of a joke. ASEAN, that is just a talk-fest. They sit around talking, they do not do anything, like the EU. A talk-fest because they depend on consensus. Unless all ten nations in ASEAN agree, nothing happens, but my perspective was, Asia is on the move, Southeast Asia is going to move with it, America needs to get back and engaged. We had disengaged after the Vietnam War in 1975. We need to get re-engaged. If we do not, China is rising. China will. I remember, I sent a memo to Secretary Powell, Colin Powell, in 2001, urging that he attend the ASEAN summit, with the ten ASEAN foreign ministers. I got that memo back. At the bottom of every memo that a Foreign Service officer writes to the 39:00leadership of the State Department, you have a line for agree and a line for disagree. I got that memo back from Colin Powell and it said "disagree." It was disillusioning because I felt we were missing an opportunity. I went to my assistant secretary, the assistant secretary in charge of our East Asia relations, Jim Kelly, talked to him, got him to agree that we needed to re-engage. He went to Colin Powell with a second memo that was flushed out and Colin Powell sent it back and said "agree." That July I went with Colin Powell to Hanoi for the ASEAN meeting and it's fascinating. For the first time you had an American secretary of state sitting here, all ten of the ASEAN foreign ministers, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, et cetera, sitting 40:00around here talking on an equal level and it changed everything for us. It made us a player in Southeast Asia. This is important because now, ten, eleven years later, China has continued its rise, dramatic rise. I can discuss that later, but what China has done is phenomenal and China has pole-vaulted into the 21st century and part of that, what goes along with that, is national pride, right? If your country has moved from the depths of poverty in the 19th century and 20th century, all of a sudden you are moving, your cutting edge technology, you are the financer of the world, pride comes, a justifiable pride. Chinese people are very proud of what they have done but that also creates arrogance and what 41:00they have begun to do now that they have established themselves on the world stage, they have begun to push. In the South China Sea, they are pushing to claim islands down there, they are sending their military in to occupy islands. Other nations, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia, all claim these islands.


JIM HUSKEY: Japan is up north. The East China Sea, this is the South China Sea, south of China, the East China Sea is between Japan, Korea, and China. China is pushing there to reclaim, it says reclaim, they were never occupied before, historically. But China wants those islands because they are potential resources and oil all through this region. So China has risen, become vastly more wealthy, 42:00vastly successful, also becoming more pushy on its foreign policy and this in turn has sent a shiver of fear through the ASEAN countries that border the South China Sea. For now, this is important because we have established ourselves, America, as aligned with ASEAN nations because of our re-engaging ASEAN. So last November, President Obama announced his major foreign policy push which was pivot toward Asia. We now call it "refocus" because "pivot" sounds like we were ignoring Southeast Asia before, which we were, but now we refocus on Asia, 43:00because now we have all the Southeast Asia nations responding to us very positively, because China is up here, rich, powerful, and pushy and using its military increasingly, aggressively. So we have a very interesting situation in Asia right now and there is indeed a pivot going on. China has arisen. America is there to stay. By the way, what was the administration pivoting from last November? He said we want to pivot our foreign policy from Asia.

STUDENT: The Middle East?

JIM HUSKEY: The Middle East. We pulled out of Iraq, in the process, pulled out of Afghanistan. "Ah. It is time to recognize that the real dynamos in the world are in Asia, so we need to engage with Asia." Of course what has happened in the past year or so has been complicated. The Arab uprising, Tunisia and Egypt have 44:00turned over and established relatively democratic governments, but as we saw three weeks ago in Benghazi, Libya, where Chris Stevens, our ambassador, was killed, and three other Foreign Officers. The Middle East is very, very unsettled. The Middle East is extremely important to us, security-wise, obviously since 9/11, but also economically and energy-wise, so the international relations picture right now and America's foreign policy is extraordinarily complicated. I would like to discuss that some with you. If you have questions, if you have comments, things that you have been reading about or thinking about, America's foreign policy on Asia, what's happening with Asia. What kind of things are you interested about with Asia, U.S. foreign policy?


STUDENT: I was wondering what, when she was talking about how we cut off ties with the Chinese government officially, what did that look like? Did you sit in your office and not talk to anybody?

JIM HUSKEY: Absolutely. After the Tiananmen massacre on June 4, 1989, our embassy was surrounded by PLA soldiers, People's Liberation Army soldiers, and I remember five months later, Halloween, we had a Halloween party at the embassy and everybody dressed in costume and you came dressed as what?


JOANNE HUSKEY: I do not know if you know anything about Tiananmen Square, but during Tiananmen Square, students in China built a huge paper mache Statue of Liberty, just like our Statue of Liberty, with a torch and everything and they called it the Goddess of Democracy. So I decided I would go as Democracy that for Halloween. I had a big white sheet and a torch and these guards are all around me and they did not know what was under the sheet. They thought I was sneaking something into the embassy.

JIM HUSKEY: Very provocative.

JOANNE HUSKEY: To answer your question though, yes, because I was evacuated. After Tiananmen happened because things got pretty bad very quickly and the Chinese military was out of control and they started shooting at the U.S. compound where Americans and foreigners were living, so all of what they called 47:00unessential personnel, were evacuated. We had to leave on an airplane and just a few people like Jim were left and what you did in terms of relating to the Chinese government, I do not know. How did you?

JIM HUSKEY: There are so many ramifications to this question. One other thing about that night, when people would approach the embassy, even children, our schoolchildren, the soldiers would point their guns at them and send them to click, because they had bullets in their pockets, and they would scare us. We were the enemy. The students, during the Beijing Spring before the massacre, we were driving our ancient Toyota through a sea of people, a sea of humanity, hundreds of thousands of people in the street, and we were plowing through there and they would part and they would say "Foreign friend! Foreign friend!" We were 48:00their hope.

JOANNE HUSKEY: "Honorable outside person."

JIM HUSKEY: Because we were the model of democracy that they wanted. But after that those PLA soldiers are your answer. We were cut off completely. We were the enemy. I remember I was doing consulate interviews and I would interview these kids going to America to study and I would keep a record in my back pocket of all the sons and daughters of all the high communist party leaders, they all have children in America studying, and after the massacre, the spokesman for the Chinese government was just lambasting America. "America is evil. They are kidnapping our children and holding them hostage there. America free our students." I went with the ambassador to meet the spokesman and was sitting 49:00there and Ambassador James Lilley said, after receiving all these complaints and this bitter, bitter protest from this man, and the ambassador said "Oh by the way how is (?)" That was his son who was at Princeton "and (?)" who was at Berkeley. They had four kids.

JOANNE HUSKEY: They were all in the United States.

JIM HUSKEY: That made a big difference in how he treated us. It was a rough time. It really was. It was a very, very unpleasant time.

JOANNE: What other questions do you have?

STUDENT: I am interested in, at the time this is going on in China, what was the diplomatic relations for the U.S. like in other areas of Southeast Asia? Did that affect other countries in Southeast Asia at all?

JIM HUSKEY: No, they were totally separate. Like I was saying earlier, our relationship was fairly minimal. We did not value them. Small countries and at 50:00that time we were focused on the Soviet Union. Southeast Asia, other than Vietnam.

JOANNE HUSKEY: But there was a good relationship with Hong Kong. There was a lot of democracy moving in Hong Kong, so the U.S. still had relations with Hong Kong, even after China went hardcore.

STUDENT: I have a question about Hong Kong. Do you see, when you are talking about Taiwan, I was talking with a lot of my friends who are from Hong Kong and some of my friends from mainland China, do you see Hong Kong in China as one potential flashpoint?

JIM HUSKEY: No, not Hong Kong in China. Hong Kong is part of China. It is part of China now. It is in a separate zone.

JOANNE HUSKEY: They are having a movement right now.

JIM HUSKEY: It is miniscule. There are seven or eight million people there and most of them accept their position because China has done a remarkable job in 51:00Hong Kong. It is true that it is officially Chinese and they have a communist party member there overseeing it, but they allow free elections over there. They have found other ways to squash things, and there certainly is a self-censorship among newspapers, but they have surprised virtually everybody with how open they have been with Hong Kong. Why are they so open with Hong Kong? It is their territory. Why?

JIM BROWN: Taiwan.

JIM HUSKEY: Taiwan. Exactly. This is the model for Taiwan.

JOANNE HUSKEY: However, Taiwan looks at Hong Kong and says "We do not want to be anything like that." They do not want to be part of China.

JIM HUSKEY: It is an effort to show Taiwan that "You become part of the mother country again and you will be well treated too."

JOANNE HUSKEY: Any other questions?

STUDENT: In the documentary we watched, it mentioned the Tiananmen Square massacre and these student leaders that became heroes to the movement had big 52:00impact on other communist countries at the time, especially movements toward democracy. They kind of became symbols and it only mentioned it briefly so I wondered how much did that actually affect, that there was this massacre and these heroes, how much did that actually affect the fall of the Soviet Union and these other countries?

JOANNE HUSKEY: You mean Eastern Europe.


JOANNE STUDENT: For a while there it was on the press, this was just one thing that happened. I do not know if you know the story, when the students, there were about a million students in the time he is talking about, in the square there were a million students--

JIM HUSKEY: May 15, which is two and a half weeks before the massacre.

JOANNE HUSKEY: There were a million people. Gorbachev had come to China, the first time in thirty years, so the entire international press came and they thought they were covering Gorbachev's visit to China and all of a sudden these students are there and it is a the hunger strike no less and there are IVs 53:00hanging all over the place and tents and doctors running in and out. It was a really wild scene. So the cameras all turned to the student movement of course and the entire world saw that and then, all of a sudden, with no announcement, China yanked the cord on that press and blacked it out and I think it was the 2nd of June or something. All of a sudden you could not see anything anymore but there was enough information out there and I think that Jim can explain that what happened after that sort of cannot be not consequential that after that so many countries in Eastern Europe went democratic.

JIM HUSKEY: Timing and sequence is very, very important and this is actually a major event in modern world history: the collapse of the Soviet Empire, the rise 54:00of a whole different mindset internationally, so this is a very important question to ask. The sequence is important. June 4, 1989, the communist party in China massacres its people. Students, workers, it massacres them. Shocks the world. Shocks other communist nations too. East Germany, Romania, Russia, Poland, so it undermines the legitimacy in the eyes of communist regimes. Nobody has ever quantified this, public surveys would take real research, but I would argue that it certainly softened the Communist system and undermined Gorbachev, the president of Russia and the communist party general secretary. He was weak and he was undermined. He was a reformist, but even that weakened the legitimacy 55:00of communist parties per se. So the irony is that all those communist parties collapsed, but China didn't and China's moving again. Irony is here.

STUDENT: I know that the government’s original orders at Tiananmen were to not fire but to sort of remove everyone from the square by 6:00am, I think. So my question is who is the person who fired? Was that under the government's supervision?

JIM HUSKEY: I do not think anybody really knows. There are guests here. We have heard reports that they were ordered not to fire, but they were ordered to retake the square. Period. That was the ultimate order, so when push comes to shove, if you are a PLA soldier, you do not think that square are in trouble, and I have never forgotten, to give you an example of this, a very vivid example, every night in the weeks before the Tiananmen massacre, the last few 56:00weeks of May, first few days of June, every night, PLA soldiers, People's Liberation Army soldiers, were sent in, marching on foot, because the streets were occupied by students and workers. Nothing was moving, just hundreds of thousands of people in the street, but every night, about 6 o'clock, a column of PLA soldiers would come in from the countryside. These were young boys, seventeen, eighteen years old, country bumpkins. They had probably never been in a big city in their lives. Just looking at a city, they were amazed by this big cosmopolitan city of Beijing. These little country bumpkins. They were coming in and they would announce in the square over the loudspeaker system "They are coming in from Chang’an Jie or, from Chang’an West Road" and thousands of people would rush to meet them and block them and turn them back night after night.


JOANNE HUSKEY: The people would surround these soldiers and they would talk to them and say "You do not want to hurt the people. We are having this demonstration that you want to be a part of." They were not armed up until June 4, but the Chinese government, to answer your question, the Chinese government did allow the students that were inside the square to remain. Nobody actually went inside the square itself. They filed out of the square and the Chinese government allowed them to walk out of the square and they walked this long line out of the square so the reality is that nobody was shot inside that square but people were shot all around and whether the government ordered them to shoot or whether PLA went crazy, I do not know.

JIM HUSKEY: I have never forgotten, the night before the massacre, the night of June 2, June 3, I was witnessing students and workers turning back this small 58:00column of PLA soldiers and these soldiers who were seventeen, eighteen years old were just terrified. Hundreds of thousands of people focusing on them and they kind of broke down and cried and I will never forget it. One soldier dropped his backpack and was trying to run away and the people around opened the backpack up and there was one tiny little tin of noodles with a spoon there and a pocketknife. Kind of pitiful. These are poor little soldiers coming in from the countryside and told "Retake the square or else." The last night, they were sent in in a massive column and told "Retake the square or else" and at some point the shooting started.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Well there were tanks. The last night there were tanks. That was a big change. They would just walk in.

JIM BROWN: I am Jim Brown. I was more or less hired by Wayne Flynt in 1971 and 59:00he has told me these stories.

JIM HUSKEY: I know all about you.

JIM BROWN: You are one of his proudest cases but years ago, a dated book, it is dated now, but it is Robert Kaplan’s The Arabists: The Romance of an American Elite, about especially about the U.S. State Department personnel. He argues that the Peace Corps is probably a better route or a more common route to the Foreign Service than more traditional PhD, Ivey League programs. How would you react to that?

JIM HUSKEY: That is partly true because many Foreign Service officers are in the Peace Corps but even more--is that me? I didn't know whose phone it was.


JOANNE HUSKEY: Just turn it off then.

JIM BROWN: Even more than the Peace Corps...

JIM HUSKEY: The Peace Corps feeds directly into the U.S.A.I.D. because you are in the Peace Corps, you are there to help people and there is a logical sequence, going through to the U.S. Agency for International Development, to help farmers and small businessmen develop in countries around the world, health care and so forth. So that is a direct channel. And U.S.A.I.D. officers are FSOs. They are Foreign Service Officers. It is a different chain of command but they are also FSOs.

JOANNE HUSKEY: It is not exclusive. There are many Foreign Service officers who have been in the Peace Corps and you do not have to have a PhD to be a Foreign Service officer by any means.

JIM HUSKEY: All I am saying is percentage-wise, a much higher percent of U.S.A.I.D. officers are Foreign Service officers or former Peace Corps. I would say for the Foreign Service, I actually taught for one year at Georgetown 61:00University, 2003 to 2004 as their diplomat in residence. I taught at SFS, the School of Foreign Studies, one of the best American Foreign Service schools. You have Tufts, you have John Hawkins, you have Princeton, and you have Georgetown SFX. I would say that the highest percentage, the highest single percentage of Foreign Service officers come from these Foreign Service schools. Then you have many, many lawyers. My entering class had forty people. Seven of them were lawyers who were either out of law school or may of them were corporate lawyers who got tired of the grind, the meaningless of it perhaps, and joined the Foreign Service. A number of PhDs are international relations. All kinds of people.


JOANNE HUSKEY: You can take the exam right out of college. Anybody can take the exam.

JIM HUSKEY: But most Foreign Service officers these days tend to be early thirties, they have done something first, like MBA school. Same thing. Most of them are people who have been in business several years and proven themselves. The same thing in the Foreign Service. That tends to be the case. One more point on the Foreign Service. I am not here to sell you on the Foreign Service. It is one of many international professions, but if you are interested in international relations, a life overseas, that is one of the tracks you should be pursuing, along with many others, because jobs are hard to find these days and I tell all the people I mentor, the interns I have in the State Department, get that track working. That is, sign up for that Foreign Service test, take it, and see if you can get in the Foreign Service written test, verbal test. That takes a year or two. It may be that you get in the time you need it, but that is 63:00one possibility these days, given the job market. One final point is when you see For ign Service, there are several Foreign Services. The biggest is State Department. We are the diplomats who are economic officers and political officers and consulate officers but if you are in agriculture, USDA, U.S. Department of Agriculture has its own Foreign Service. Foreign Agriculture Service, FAS. They promote American products abroad and help foreign farmers improve their products. If you are interested in commerce and are a business person, economics, FCS, Foreign Commercial Service and the Department of Commerce, they promote American business abroad, American sales, opening doors for American sales abroad, helping American businessmen go and make contacts. There are several Foreign Services. It is a fascinating existence for those who 64:00are interested.

STUDENT: Being involved with Foreign Service, can you talk about the importance of knowing another language or knowing multiple languages? How long did it take you to learn Chinese?

JIM HUSKEY: It is very important but the State Department, actually the FSI, Foreign Service Institute, that is in Washington D.C. across the river in Arlington. Beautiful college campus, rolling hills, oak trees. That is our Foreign Service Institute or college. We have probably the best language program in the world. Every language you can imagine is taught there and you get there to that one year or two year program, Chinese is two years, Japanese is two years, Arabic is two years, first year at FSI in Washington, second year you are at Beijing if you are studying Chinese or at Taipei, Arabic you will be at Cairo 65:00or Amman Jordan.

JOANNE HUSKEY: To answer your question you do not have to know the language necessarily. They might train you in that language particularly if their language is one many people do not know. Norwegian or whatever. Indonesian. The people who know Spanish, for example, tend to get sent to Latin America, the people who know Chinese get sent to Asia, but they train you. They train you and your family.

JIM HUSKEY: But it gives you an advantage. If you come in having Spanish, then you have a good chance of going to Santiago or Buenos Aires. If you do not, there are so many people who speak Spanish, Foreign Service officers who speak Spanish, that I would never get a Spanish-speaking country. I would love to learn it because she speaks fluent Spanish, I want to learn. They will not assign me, because there are so many. Chinese, they need it. Arabic, you can go anywhere you want to. There is a lot of gamesmanship here, but you gain an 66:00advantage, first on getting in because you show that you have a fluency in languages, a facility in languages that helps you get in on the actual vetting process and it gets you good assignments. They do not have to spend half a million dollars training you. Is that me again? I will never forget when George W. Bush became in as president in 2001, I had a friend who was a journalist, he went to his first press conference, and George W. Bush was talking and somebody's phone went off and he stopped and looked at that person and he just sat there and looked at them and that never happened again. Sorry. More ideas or questions.

STUDENT: I have a random question about Tiananmen, and I cannot remember the CCP 67:00leader's name, but he was in the square every night with a megaphone and then ended up disappearing, going on house arrest, wrote that book recently, Prisoner of the State.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Right, did you read it?

STUDENT: I skimmed it a few years ago. I was just wondering, did you guys ever meet him or interact with him at the square?

JIM HUSKEY: Zhao Ziyang was the president of China. He was the communist party general secretary. He was the president of China. He was a reformist and as students began to build up demonstrations for democracy and anti-corruption, he was sympathetic, but the hardliners blocked him from doing anything. Finally on June 2, two nights before the massacre at three o'clock in the morning, Zhao Ziyang, last name comes first, and his close assistant, Bao Tong, who as later 68:00in jail, went to the square, met with the students, and they were filmed and broadcast on television the next day because the journalists had taken over the TV stations. They were occupied and they would broadcast what happened, the first time in Chinese history, and they broadcast Zhao Ziyang with the students, and you could see tears in his eyes and he was telling them it was too late.

JOANNE HUSKEY: He was begging them to leave. Begging them to get out before they were going to get hurt. He knew what was going to happen. And immediately after that he was thrown into house arrest and for the rest of his life he was in house arrest, kind of a (?) type of thing and then he wrote that book, which I have not read, I would love to read it, where he told what happened. Because what was happening in the Chinese government at that time, there was this huge fight going on about what to do, how to do this and that is why it took them so many months, really, to stop this movement and it kept growing and growing and 69:00growing because there was internal confusion and he was on one side and Li Peng, who basically made the order to shoot, on the other side.

JIM HUSKEY: When Deng Xiaoping ordered the crackdown, and Deng Xiaoping, by the way, he had no title. He was this short, jolly little guy whose son Joanne worked with in the disabled federation. He was the power. He was so secure. He is an amazing person and I think he is probably one of the most important people of the twentieth century. He basically freed China and made it develop, but he realized he had to crackdown or else the communist party was finished, because the students had taken over the cities, so he ordered the PLA to go in and take 70:00the square and several of the commanders refused and they were later imprisoned. Finally he found one commander from down in Central China with a bunch of country bumpkin soldiers who would carry out his orders.

JOANNE HUSKEY: I think it is important though, you guys are--this is ancient history to talk about Tiananmen Square and in China it is too. I was in China this summer. Nobody knows anything about it. People your age have no idea what happened there. It is not in their history books. Chinese government successfully had just swept the whole thing under the rug, nobody ever learned anything about it. Except for the people whose children were killed in the square that night, or something like that. The whole incident has been erased from Chinese memory and we know that if you go around the square and talk to people in the square and they have no idea what happened there and it is phenomenal to have lived through it and to think what a major thing it was in 71:00terms of promoting democracy in this huge country and yet people are very, very happy in China. They are making money, they can buy clothes, they can do whatever they want, they are not sitting around feeling bad. And so whether it is relevant or not that this happened, we believe it is, but if you ask a typical Chinese person your age and they will say they have never heard of it.

JIM HUSKEY: The Pew Memorial Trust does surveys every year of many, many countries' levels of confidence, levels of happiness. For the past couple of years, guess which country has the most confidence and is the most satisfied with its government and is happiest. China. Way ahead of us. So that says a great deal that China has been very successful in sweeping Tiananmen under the carpet, squashing the information about it. It will come back someday, but at 72:00this point it's not an issue to Chinese--

JOANNE HUSKEY: But it goes to, sorry to talk so much, I know you have questions, but it goes to your question of revolutions. In a country where, like China, where there are a billion plus people and the higher value is not freedom. The higher value is stability. Deng Xiaoping made a decision that "We need to make a decision and this is how we are to do it." Some people said "That's the right decision." From an American lens where we believe in freedom, freedom of expression, ability to demonstrate and all that, we think it is terrible, but you somehow have to take off your Western lenses and see it from the point of view where of a country where, if a billion and a half people start getting chaotic, it would fall apart really fast. It would be terrible.


JIM HUSKEY: One of the follow ups to this too, is that we went back to China for the first time in 2007 after fifteen years away. We took our son and daughter with us, we were living in Taiwan and I was just blown away by the development there. Like I said earlier, this has never been done before in the history of the world. China has accomplished a very great deal, not just economically, but in terms, I hate to use the word "freedom" because it has different connotations, but if you walk down the streets of any city in China, people look like they do anywhere, they walk very freely, very openly. In old days, they would keep their heads down, they were afraid of talking to foreigners. They are wide open. You can talk to people you meet and they will criticize the government. It is a phenomenal change. It is not freedom like we know, liberty, but it's far, far beyond what they had ten, fifteen, twenty years ago.

JOANNE HUSKEY: You had a question.

STUDENT: I was going to say on this same issue of sweeping Tiananmen under the 74:00rug, you were saying that you were, sort of, kind of the head of the American statement, saying what happened in Tiananmen Square, how was that relationship with China, with them trying to say "No one was killed" and sweeping it under the rug. How did they react to what America was saying happened? Did they try and squash that at all?

JIM HUSKEY: No because we published our annual human rights report and we had those papers in there. That was our assessment of what happened, but George H.W. Bush was very interesting. George W. Bush's father, he had been the liaison before we had an embassy. He was the de facto ambassador in China in the 1970s. He had a long China background. He was very much a pragmatist. He said "Well what happened in Tiananmen was terrible but China is too important to break off relations to try to isolate it. There are too many people there." So he kept the 75:00channels open and even though we were all very bitter about what happened, we were convinced that the way forward was to keep the door open and in fact, in retrospect, it was. China is still under a communist system but nobody in China, nobody, not one person, believes in communism. It is a dead ideology. It is a governing body, a governing party, otherwise, China has moved on and they resolved one of the great conundrums of history: how do you get a massive population mired in poverty to move forward, to take care of its own? They have solved that problem.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Through capitalism. Seriously.

JIM HUSKEY: Through capitalism. In many ways the most capitalist country in the world is China.

STUDENT: You said it is a dead ideology, as for right now you would consider it dead. What direction do you see China moving in the next twenty, thirty years, 76:00in terms of government policy?

JIM HUSKEY: There is so many things in that question. One is, they have lost their governing ideology, or raison d’etre, reason for being. It is interesting. China's communist party is now on a real campaign to resurrect Confucius, the study of Confucius, respect for your elders, respect for leadership. They have to have some kind of ideology. So Confucianism is something they are pushing now, because they have lost it.

JOANNE HUSKEY: I think now there is an increasing economic disparity. Now they have classes and very, very rich people, they still have a lot of poor people, and there is this growing restlessness. When I was there I was talking to these people at these universities and they were fearing there was going to be some kind of revolution.

JIM HUSKEY: This is a very important point and this is an argument I have had 77:00for years with my Sinologist friends, China specialist friends, people have been predicting for twenty years that China is going to collapse. "It is growing real fast, it is a huge bubble, it is going to collapse." Or there is so much anger in China, that the people are going to rise up. Two things: I mentioned the Pew Memorial Trust and I put a great deal of credibility in that, because my sense is, what the Chinese ruling party has done, call it communist, it is just the ruling party, what it has done is, it has coopted most people in China. These hundreds of millions of Chinese people who will live in the cities, who will migrate to the cities now, hundreds of millions in every city. There are forty cities that are over one million in China. My daughter studied Chinese in a tiny city last year called Zhengzhou, I had never heard of. It turns out it has 4 78:00million people in it. Joanne had a conference in July in a little town near Shanghai, a little town we had never heard of called Nantong with 8 1/2 million people. That is what urban China is and these people have been coopted because they are living darn good lives. Everybody I know in China now, who twenty years ago, lived in little one-room apartments, had bicycles, now have a two-story home, two or three cars, have vacation villas. It is a phenomenon. That changes the stability of a system. It is true like my Sinologist friends say, every year, you have almost 80,000 or 90,000 protests in the countryside, but in the countryside, they do not go anywhere. They do not connect. They do not get into the cities. So I would argue that China is much more stable.

JOANNE HUSKEY: I might disagree. I think there is one area and that is maybe 79:00environmental issues. People are unhappy that they cannot breathe in these cities. Cannot breathe. And there are other environmental issues. No clean water, river is awful, and there have been some environmental activists gathering people and trying to do demonstrations in the street. The government does not like this and the people are starting to get unhappy with this.

STUDENT: That might be a big movement.

JIM HUSKEY: All I would say is that if you look at the Potomac River in Washington, in the 1960s it was a sewage. You could not get anywhere near it. It was industrial pollution sewage. We cleaned it up year by year and now it is clean enough to go swimming in. Look at Lake Eerie which is cleaned up. Look at Los Angeles where you can breathe air. Now it is basically clean. If anybody can do that the Chinese can.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Look at Birmingham. Birmingham used to be a black city with clouds.

JIM HUSKEY: If anybody can light people up and start a national consensus, it's 80:00China, so I would say do not count China out.

JIM BROWN: About a third of the informal associations in the late 1980s under Gorbachev were environmental groups that kind of got there foot in the door and got the reforms spread. Do you see that happening in China as well?

JOANNE HUSKEY: Could you repeat that question?

JIM BROWN: About a third of the informal groups under Gorbachev in the late 1980s pushing for change were environmental groups, green groups, because under socialism you could not have clean water, clean air and they kind of opened the door wider than Gorbachev wanted. Do you think that might happen in China?

JOANNE HUSKEY: I just went to an environmental conference in China, in August. I had about seventy students your age and we were talking about changing the environment, contributing to improving the environment and then at one point, it was run by the government, at one point a student said "We cannot do this. That 81:00requires a democracy" and all the other students were like (gasp) "You said that word, you should not talk like that" but I think there is definitely potential there for citizen involvement, citizen rebellion.

PAUL CHA: I'll also point out, in support of Joanne, I have been living in Hong Kong for the last three years and no matter where you go, the airport, any of the pharmacy stores, you will see tins and tins of baby formula and I asked "Why are all these--" All of the people from the mainland who actually have money will come in and buy as much as they can because they just do not trust the baby formula anymore after the whole milk scandal.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Even exported. I noticed that they were on the shelves in Shenzhen and stuff like that, they do not trust it in China. They will go to Hong Kong.

PAUL CHA: They will go to Hong Kong and buy all this stuff so even in that 82:00respect there is that issue.

STUDENT: What was the milk scandal?

PAUL CHA: They were adding water to it and watering it down. But in order to make it, to raise the protein count, the meter, and also to look more milkish they were adding a substance to it which was really bad for the babies and caused some deaths.

JIM HUSKEY: I just do not see these pockets of discontent happening all over the place. Certainly networking. That is one of the current economic issues that is so interesting because China's growth has fallen dramatically from ten percent to eight percent and we would die from that of course. It is going down somewhere. If it does go down and you have really hard economic times in China, then watch out.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Networking, that is what has changed. Everyone can use the internet and everyone does use the internet and Chinese kids use it more than anybody, I think. They have their own Facebook and their own google but they use 83:00it completely differently, but they use it like crazy. So the networking possibilities are huge.

JIM HUSKEY: I just cannot decide whether the Chinese government controls, and they have the best internet controls in the world because they have the top computer people to work on their controls. Is that going to win out or is the ingenuity of students, others who can circumvent that going to work out? When my son Christopher was studying at Beijing University last year, year before last, he told me that he could sit in his dorm room at Beijing University and he could go through a website in Ohio and through that he could see anything in the world. He said he learned this from a Chinese student.

PAUL CHA: I'll also point out that one interesting phenomenon with a lot of these protests is they are not random, so there is this notion of rightful 84:00resistance, so there are laws, and when they are protesting, if it is "This is right, this is wrong" it is "This is law, these are my rights and this is my redress. I have the right to rebel" so I think some of these riots, and yeah, I agree with you, in the sense that they are in little pockets and whether or not they can link up and communications networks and there is that issue, but the nature of the protests, in a sense, has changed because there is more of a sense of they are right, they have a right to protest.

JIM HUSKEY: That is very exciting and I am hoping that is the way things are going but I see a race between control, whether it is political control, internet control of information, and this whole push to share information, there is a real race going on here.

JOANNE HUSKEY: We had this discussion and it really relates to your class and 85:00that it is: we went from a place where China was really oppressive when we were there and people were really poor, and we moved to India where people were really poor, equally poor, but they had freedom and they seemed much happier and then we moved to a place in Kenya, where they were equally poor again. The average GDP was something like $200 a year and they were angry, very angry. Unemployed and very angry. So the question is in China, they decided to loosen the valve on people, so they let the economic development happen. People are getting rich. They are getting richer and richer and richer. At the same time of getting richer, they are getting smarter, they are getting more demanding perhaps, of their rights, so the question is does development keep people happy, like in the United States, if we are happy, we are rich, but having no freedoms is the question, in terms of China versus perhaps a place where they hold down 86:00and do not let them develop anger. Reason to have a revolution.

JIM HUSKEY: I mentioned that I was the embassy's human rights officer in Kenya. Every embassy has one, the human rights embassy report to that country every year is published so I was the human rights officer. I made a real point of going out and meeting people in the foreign ministry in different universities who were in the political science but talking about human rights from a Chinese point of view and three times I had meetings with a group of university professors from Tsinghua University, Beijing University, and four other universities and we were sitting in one of the professors homes and basically debate human rights and you can bet your bottom dollar that one or two of those professors was from the ministry of state security. They were watching everything I did, but we had a real discussion and their point was, they took 87:00the official Chinese line, "What is human rights?" Basically, fundamentally, most importantly, it is the right to live and have a decent life. When you are dirt poor, you have nothing, you really have enough to live, the right to have a house over your head, to have food on your table every day. That to them, given their historical context, that was the most important human right of all. To them, the idea of political rights and speeches and so forth, that is icing on the cake. I came back with a different point of view, but I understand where they are coming from. It is not irrational and they have come along way, as the old Virginia Slims commercial used to have it.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Hong Kong. I would definitely recommend going. It is mind-blowing 88:00isn't it? It’s eye-opening.

JIM HUSKEY: It's scary.

JOANNE HUSKEY: It's a little scary.

JIM HUSKEY: When Joanne and I took our son Chris and daughter Caroline to Beijing, to China in 2007 for the first time in fifteen years and we saw what had happened to Beijing, what had happened to Shanghai, I left there shaken. I thought "If they have come this far in the past eight to ten years, where are they going to be five years from now?" In Shanghai, we visited Shanghai, were living there in 1991, when we were living there, Shanghai had not changed one iota since 1949 when the communists won the civil war. The same skyline, the same old British buildings, because it used to be a British colony, basically. Across the river from Shanghai was nothing. Rice patties, one-story buildings, warehouses, wasteland. We got back in 2007, which is already five years, across 89:00the river there were no more rice patties and warehouses, there were hundreds of forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty story buildings like stalagmites coming out of a cave. The city itself was just transformed. It was mind-blowing. We took off from Puyang airport, this massive international airport outside of Shanghai. We took off from there. It was massive. I saw that close to two-thirds of it was dark, it was unused and I asked somebody about that and they said "Oh this is for the next seventy five years." What country in the history of the world has built for the next seventy five years?

JOANNE HUSKEY: five years later it is already being used. It is already in use 90:00and that place where they are putting buildings up now, eighty, ninety stories, that is a short, there are many, so the whole thing is going so fast.

STUDENT: Do you think that will happen in Hanoi?

JIM HUSKEY: Not as fast but in Hanoi, the Vietnamese are booming, whereas the North Koreans are not.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Ho Chi Minn City, did you go there?



JIM HUSKEY: It is a happening place and one that Obama refocused, or the American government, refocused its policy on Asia. It is a happening place.

JOANNE HUSKEY: What revolutions are you learning about? All Asian revolutions?

PAUL CHA: Yes. We are coming off one, now we are coming onto our second.

JIM HUSKEY: Which one have you had?

PAUL CHA: Meiji Restoration.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Is it focused on China mostly?

PAUL CHA: It is focused predominantly on China and then a little bit of Japan and a little bit of Korea and we are doing, not we, but I will be doing two 91:00Koreas next semester. There is not that much on Korea relatively speaking.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Why did you guys take this course?

PAUL CHA: They were tricked into it.

JOANNE HUSKEY: Is it a required course?


JOANNE HUSKEY: It just sounded interesting. Revolutions.

JIM HUSKEY: Do any of you have interest in working internationally? I would say that even if you are interested in business, these days there are very few businesses, maybe those office businesses, very small businesses, that do not have some international aspect to them or are not affected by what is going on internationally.

JOANNE HUSKEY: There is definitely no profession anymore. You think about science, journalism, education. Really right now it is just going global, so you have got to be global.

PAUL CHA: I think we should wrap up. Thank you very much for coming.


0:14 - Background and Travels

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Partial Transcript: When you get some Foreign Service officers in a room, you start telling stories, because we have so many adventures in our lives and we're rabid tourists.

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey talks about his time at Samford University and travels in Europe and Asia.

Keywords: Asia; China; Howard College; Indologist; Samford University; Sinologist; Taiwan; US Foreign Service

Subjects: Foreign service

Hyperlink: Jim Huskey while a student at Samford.

6:18 - US Diplomat in China: Human Rights Officer and the Tienanmen Massacre

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Partial Transcript: "I got my doctorate in U.S. diplomatic history with a specialty in East Asia, but especially China. Then I went off and joined the Foreign Service."

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey discusses his time as a US diplomat in China, and witnessing the Tienanmen Massacre.

Keywords: Asia; China; Foreign Service; Human Rights; People's Liberation Army (PLA); Tienanmen Square; UN High Commission on Refugees (UNHCR)

Subjects: China--Foreign relations--United States China--History--Tiananmen Square Incident, 1989 Diplomacy Diplomacy--History Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service United States--Foreign Relations--China

Hyperlink: Tienanmen Square

12:53 - US Diplomat in India: Promoting Economic Development

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Partial Transcript: "Next, you move our next overseas post... in India. There the impetus was, human rights in China, in India, commerce and trade."

Segment Synopsis: Huskey talks about his time as a diplomat in India, and his role in promoting economic development and trade.

Keywords: DuPont; Economic development; India; Jawaharlal Nehru; Nehruian Socialism

Subjects: Foreign service India--Foreign relations--Soviet Union United States--Foreign economic relations--India United States--Foreign Relations--India

15:50 - US Diplomat in Kenya: Democracy Building

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Partial Transcript: "Kenya was an authoritarian, not exactly a dictatorship, but authoritarian under Daniel arap Moi, so there, my top priority was, number three, democracy-building."

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey discusses the role he played in building democracy while serving as a diplomat in Kenya.

Keywords: Daniel arap Moi; Democracy building; Foreign Service; Kenya; World Bank

Subjects: United States--Foreign economic relations--Africa United States--Foreign relations--Africa

17:03 - US Political Counselor in Taiwan: Conflict Prevention

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Partial Transcript: "We went to Taiwan in 2004 where I was the political counselor"

Segment Synopsis: Huskey talks about his time as the Political Counselor at the American Institute in Taiwan and conflict prevention.

Keywords: American Institute in Taiwan (AIT); China; Conflict prevention; Flashpoints; Foreign Service; Taiwan; Taiwan Relations Act

Subjects: China--Foreign relations--Taiwan China--Relations--Taiwan Diplomacy Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service United States--Foreign Relations--1945-1989 United States--Foreign Relations--China United States--Foreign Relations--Taiwan

Hyperlink: American Institute in Taiwan

21:04 - Working as a team and Unofficial Diplomats

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Partial Transcript: "I want to ask, in the Foreign Service, I have been talking about myself so far, but I was part of a team, all these three decades, living and serving abroad, representing and serving the United States officially, all that time I was accompanied by Joanne, who is an internationalist in her own right."

Segment Synopsis: Huskey introduces his wife, Joanne, and discusses the many roles played by "unofficial diplomats".

Keywords: Foreign Service; Non-governmental Organization (NGO); Unofficial Diplomat; US Foreign Service

Subjects: Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service

23:47 - The Role of the Unofficial Diplomat

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Partial Transcript: "One of the things he did not say, and that is, you end up being part of history, actually being part of history."

Segment Synopsis: Joanne Huskey discusses her role as an "unofficial diplomat".

Keywords: American Women's Association; Deng Xiaoping; James Lilley; Kenya; Non-governmental Organization (NGO); Tienanmen Square; Unofficial Diplomat; World Vision

Subjects: Diplomacy--History Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service Non-governmental organizations United States--Foreign relations--Africa United States--Foreign Relations--China

30:23 - Asia and Foreign Policy

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Partial Transcript: "When I took this “Far East” course here in 1967 under this professor Wayne Flynt, Asia was a basket case. It was backward, it was dirty, it was not moving. I mean, that was the phrase you always heard, “Asia, it is a basket case.”

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey discusses Asia, particularly China, India and Japan.

Keywords: Asia; China; Deng Xiaoping; India; Japan; Jawaharlal Nehru; Narasimha Rao; Nehruian Socialism

Subjects: Diplomacy--History United States--Foreign Relations--1945-1989 United States--Foreign relations--Asia

Hyperlink: Deng Xiaoping

37:37 - US Liaison to ASEAN

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Partial Transcript: "When I came back from Kenya in 1999, I was put in charge of the ASEAN program in the State Department, I was the liaison to ASEAN."

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey talks about his time as the State Department Liaison to the Association for Southeast Asian Nations, the problems with ASEAN and his role in US foreign policy in Asia.

Keywords: Asia; Association for Southeastern Asian Nations (ASEAN); China; Indonesia; Phillippines; US State Department; Vietnam

Subjects: United States--Foreign relations--21st century United States--Foreign relations--Asia United States--Foreign Relations--China

Hyperlink: Map of the ASEAN member nations

45:30 - US Diplomat in China after Tienanmen

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Partial Transcript: I was wondering what, when she was talking about how we cut off ties with the Chinese government officially, what did that look like? Did you sit in your office and not talk to anybody?

Segment Synopsis: Jim and Joanne Huskey talk about their time in China leading up to and after the Tienanmen Square Massacre and US relations with China during that time.

Keywords: Beijing Spring; China; James Lilley; People's Liberation Army (PLA); Tienanmen Square; US Foreign Service

Subjects: China--Foreign relations--United States China--History--Tiananmen Square Incident, 1989 Diplomacy Diplomacy--History Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service United States--Foreign relations administration United States--Foreign Relations--1945-1989 United States--Foreign Relations--China

Hyperlink: Replica of the "Goddess of Democracy"

49:49 - US relations in other areas after Tienanmen

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Partial Transcript: I am interested in, at the time this is going on in China, what was the diplomatic relations for the U.S. like in other areas of Southeast Asia? Did that affect other countries in Southeast Asia at all?

Segment Synopsis: Jim and Joanne Huskey discuss the impact US-Chinese relations had on other areas of Southeast Asia, specifically Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Keywords: China; Soviet Union; Taiwan; United States (US)

Subjects: China--Foreign relations--Taiwan United States--Foreign relations--Asia United States--Foreign Relations--China

52:23 - Effect of the Tienanmen protests on the rest of the Communist World

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Partial Transcript: How much did that actually affect, that there was this massacre and these heroes, how much did that actually affect the fall of the Soviet Union and these other countries?

Segment Synopsis: The Huskeys talk about how the coverage of the Tienanmen protests affected the collapse of the Communist nations.

Keywords: China; Soviet Union; Tienanmen Square

Subjects: China--Foreign relaitons--Soviet Union

Hyperlink: Gorbachev in China

55:28 - Witnesses to the Tienanmen Square Massacre

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Partial Transcript: I know that the government’s original orders at Tiananmen were to not fire but to sort of remove everyone from the square by 6:00am, I think. So my question is who is the person who fired? Was that under the government's supervision?

Segment Synopsis: The Huskeys discuss the causes of the Massacre, who started it, and the aftermath.

Keywords: China; People's Liberation Army (PLA); Tienanmen Square

Subjects: China--History--Tiananmen Square Incident, 1989

GPS: Tienanmen Square
Map Coordinates: 39.9033, 116.3917

59:36 - How to Join the US Foreign Service

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Partial Transcript: He argues that the Peace Corps is probably a better route or a more common route to the Foreign Service than more traditional PhD, Ivey League programs. How would you react to that?

Segment Synopsis: The Huskeys explain several of the different methods for getting into the US Foreign Service, such as the Peace Corps, as well as some of the types of people who join, and the requirements to join.

Keywords: Foreign Agricultural Service (FAS); Foreign Commercial Service (FCS); Foreign Service; Foreign Service Institute (FSI); Foreign Service Officers (FSOs); Georgetown University; Peace Corps; School of Foreign Service (SFS); United States Department of Agriculture (USDA); US Agency for International Development (USAID); US Department of Commerce; US Foreign Service; US State Department

Subjects: Diplomacy Diplomacy--Language Diplomatic and consular service Foreign service United States--Foreign relations administration

Hyperlink: Georgetown University School of Foreign Service

67:24 - The Chinese Government's Reaction to the Tienanmen Protests, and its Impact Today.

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Partial Transcript: I have a random question about Tiananmen, and I cannot remember the CCP leader's name, but he was in the square every night with a megaphone and then ended up disappearing, going on house arrest, wrote that book recently, Prisoner of the State. I was just wondering, did you guys ever meet him or interact with him at the square?

Segment Synopsis: The Huskeys discuss the reactions of the Chinese government to Tienanmen, and how the Massacre is seen in China today.

Keywords: China; Chinese Communist Party (CCP); Deng Xiaoping; Li Peng; Tienanmen Square; Zhao Ziyang

Subjects: China--History--Tiananmen Square Incident, 1989

74:26 - US Diplomat: America's Response to Tienanmen

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Partial Transcript: How did they react to what America was saying happened? Did they try and squash that at all?

Segment Synopsis: Jim Huskey explains why the American government responded to Tienanmen the way it did.

Keywords: China; Tienanmen Square; United States (US)

Subjects: United States--Foreign Relations--China

76:03 - Post-Communist China

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Partial Transcript: You said it is a dead ideology, as for right now you would consider it dead. What direction do you see China moving in the next twenty, thirty years, in terms of government policy

Segment Synopsis: The Huskey's talk about the changing government policy of China, the declining influence of Communism, and the future of that nation.

Keywords: China; Chinese Communist Party (CCP); Sinologist


80:43 - Reform Groups in China

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Partial Transcript: About a third of the informal groups under Gorbachev in the late 1980s pushing for change were environmental groups, green groups, because under socialism you could not have clean water, clean air and they kind of opened the door wider than Gorbachev wanted. Do you think that might happen in China?

Segment Synopsis: The Huskeys discuss the possible groups pushing for reform in China, specifically the role that environmental groups play. They also discuss specific environmental problems facing China, and the government's role in keeping reform groups under control.



86:13 - Closing Remarks

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Partial Transcript: "To them, the idea of political rights and speeches and so forth, that is icing on the cake. I came back with a different point of view, but I understand where they are coming from. It is not irrational and they have come along way, as the old Virginia Slims commercial used to have it."

Segment Synopsis: Jim and Joanne Huskey make their closing remarks in the lecture on the nature of human rights in China, building for the future, and final questions.



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